QUESTION: When does Consciousness begin?

[A Dark Philosopher]

At first glance it may seem a small question or even a very large question and I've deliberately not defined "Consciousness" here as I'm looking for all your thoughts and opinions (those that are interested in helping Tony and I anyway).

I've been reading and researching this question for quite some time now because the answer is rather important to my whole "Collapsing the Consciousness wave" (CtCw) addendum to ITLAD: At what point does the proposed "collapse" take place? When does Consciousness begin?

Is a newborn baby conscious? Is the consciousness of the baby linked to the consciousness of the Mother while in the womb? Or until the umbilical cord is severed? Does consciousness arise in utero? Does the newly fertilised egg have consciousness? Are the independent sperm or egg conscious?

I have my own ideas and thoughts on this question but it would be interested to see what all those here with an interest in Tony's, and my, theories and their expansion think?

Over to you...............

[Nebankh]

I'll have a stab at this one Karl as consciousness is also an area that fascinates me...

I suppose it depends on whether we're referring to consciousness as awareness of anything at all, and not counting awareness of self. A sperm must have the lowest form of consciousness, and I wouldn't suggest it is aware of its single purpose in existence, but what animates the sperm is the essence of the life force, which in my understanding is consciousness, therefore, I would say that a sperm has consciousness (but not as we know it Jim). But at this point, its consciousness would probably be inferior to even a plant...

I have no idea at what point each of the sensory faculties develop sufficiently for them to be of any use, and for the brain to recognise any use by any of the faculties. But we do know that babies in the womb are said to experience the emotions of the mother such as shock or trauma etc (I haven't read about this in any detail) though from what age I don't know, and if this is earlier than any sensory awareness. Might emotional awareness be considered a higher level of consciousness than sensory awareness - or even the beginning of consciousness for someone who doesn't accept a sperm as conscious?

I've spent too many years discussing these kind of things with diverse people from so many different backgrounds, and with widely differing views, so please excuse the level of my debate!

[A Dark Philosopher]

Nebankh: Thank you for taking the time to consider this Jaq. It is really appreciated.

I suppose it depends on whether we're referring to consciousness as awareness of anything at all, and not counting awareness of self. A sperm must have the lowest form of consciousness, and I wouldn't suggest it is aware of its single purpose in existence, but what animates the sperm is the essence of the life force, which in my understanding is consciousness, therefore, I would say that a sperm has consciousness (but not as we know it Jim). But at this point, its consciousness would probably be inferior to even a plant...

Most psychologists agree that self-awareness only develops in children from around age 3, prior to that it is, of course, self-evident that an infant is of a functioning consciousness which, to me, is testament to the suggestion that consciousness requires no self-awareness but that self-awareness enables the evolution of the subjective consciousness, which in-turn (in CtCw) enables the evolution of all Consciousness. For example, a bacteria or plant-life has a level of proto-consciousness, a sense of knowing, but has no sense of self or any reflexive self-consciousness. I agree with you regarding the sperm possessing a base level of some consciousness: This will most likely be encoded within the DNA and Protein.

I have no idea at what point each of the sensory faculties develop sufficiently for them to be of any use, and for the brain to recognise any use by any of the faculties. But we do know that babies in the womb are said to experience the emotions of the mother such as shock or trauma etc (I haven't read about this in any detail) though from what age I don't know, and if this is earlier than any sensory awareness. Might emotional awareness be considered a higher level of consciousness than sensory awareness - or even the beginning of consciousness for someone who doesn't accept a sperm as conscious?

Having read widely on this, spoken to some Obstetricians and discussed this with Philosophers, Psychologists and random people in the pub there is a wide range of thought on just when the sensory faculties in the brain develop to produce a sentience. In a particularly interesting article recently, Christof Koch suggested that Consciousness requires a sophisticated network of highly interconnected components and nerve cells. Its physical substrate, the thalamo-cortical complex, that provides consciousness with its highly elaborate content, begins to be in place between the 24th and 28th week of gestation. Roughly two months later synchrony of the electroencephalographic (EEG) rhythm across both cortical hemispheres signals the onset of global neuronal integration. Thus, many of the circuit elements necessary for consciousness are in place by the third trimester. By this time, preterm infants can survive outside the womb under proper medical care. And as it is so much easier to observe and interact with a preterm baby than with a fetus of the same gestational age in the womb, the fetus is often considered to be like a preterm baby, like an unborn newborn. But this notion disregards the unique uterine environment: suspended in a warm and dark cave, connected to the placenta that pumps blood, nutrients and hormones into its growing body and brain, the fetus is asleep.

I've spent too many years discussing these kind of things with diverse people from so many different backgrounds, and with widely differing views, so please excuse the level of my debate!

Jaq, your level of debate is absolutely fine and excellent. Science tells us the hard detail, Neurology the mechanism and Biology the growth but general discussion, thought, personal feelings and ideas are JUST as important to me. If you are still in contact with any of these diverse people then please direct them to this thread and/or my twitter account where this question has also been posted as the more input to this, the better.

So further questions could be: Does Consciousness require a self-reflexive nature to exist? Or does that simply evolve the subjective consciousness? Can an infant below 3yrs old have a sense of self or identity? When does Consciousness begin?

Any reply or further thoughts from you Jaq will be greatly appreciated, as will the thoughts and feelings of all……………

[woodsprite]

Just a couple of thoughts before I rush off to work:

a) is consciousness self-awareness? If so are we saying people with very profound disabilities are not conscious? In my opinion they are but what do you think?

b) are animals conscious?

c) is consciousness synonymous with sentience?

[A Dark Philosopher]

Just a couple of thoughts before I rush off to work:

Fantastically well-observed questions, Di. Thank you for asking them.

a) is consciousness self-awareness? If so are we saying people with very profound disabilities are not conscious? In my opinion they are but what do you think?

I began this thread by saying "I've deliberately not defined "Consciousness" here as I'm looking for all your thoughts and opinions", but your question here is very important when looking at the deeper aspects of my initial question: When does Consciousness begin? Personally no, I do not think that consciousness IS self-awareness, although self-awareness is certainly a stage in the evolution of consciousness, subjectively. Again, simply observing the everyday movements and actions of an infant show that it has no (or a very low level) of self-awareness, but it is also quite evidently conscious; Or more accurately, sentient (but I'll come to that in my answer to your third question). Therefore, having said that I don't think that consciousness is defined as self-awareness, I'm certainly not suggesting that people with very profound disabilities, or mental health issues, are not conscious so I completely agree with you there.

b) are animals conscious?

To answer this properly I would need to probably define "animals" to a more specific area. As I said in question 1, I think consciousness, when applied to a subjective being, is achieved in stages, it's a constantly evolving ability. Therefore different species of animals have different levels of consciousness. Daniel Dennett says "Consciousness requires a certain kind of informational organization that does not seem to be 'hard-wired' in humans, but is instilled by human culture. Moreover, consciousness is not a black-or-white, all-or-nothing type of phenomenon, as is often assumed. The differences between humans and other species are so great that speculations about animal consciousness seem ungrounded......ARE animals conscious? The way we are? Which species, and why? What is it like to be a bat, a rat, a vulture, a whale?" Now, I don't quite agree that these questions are "ungrounded", but I can understand Daniel's point. Are animals conscious the way that we are conscious? Almost certainly not, but are they conscious? (at some level), almost certainly yes; I would say that applies to all living creatures from the most evolved intellectually, say Dolphins, to the single-celled organisms, but whether that is merely sentience, proto-consciousness or whatever label is open to debate, which leads me nicely to…..

c) is consciousness synonymous with sentience?

BEAUTIFUL question, Di! Firstly, what do I mean by sentience? Well, I mean having a sensory input; the readiness to perceive sensations; elementary, undifferentiated consciousness. Put a plant in a dark room for a number of days (kept watered, obviously) and then place a very bright heat-lamp in one corner. The plant will grow towards the light. Now, this suggests the plant has a sensory input; is responsive to the stimulus of the heat and light, and therefore, by definition, is sentient. However, few would suggest that the plant has consciousness, again as we have it, but a level of proto-consciousness, yes. So your question, "is consciousness synonymous with sentience", largely yes, although not mutually inclusive, for whilst it requires sentience to be conscious, does it require consciousness to be sentient? Personally, and this is rather deep CtCw theory, I think that when sentience is attained, a human-being, becomes conscious as we have the evolved brain capacity to do so at the level of consciousness that we perceive. This consciousness then only begins to develop and aid our subjective growth when the self-reflexive element is learned, at around 3yrs. Eugene Halliday termed this “Reflexive-Self-Consciousness” and his book of the same name is one of my favourites in that field.

Di, thank you again for the questions. Really fabulous and well thought out. I would be very interested to read your thoughts on my answers and also your own personal thoughts, being a Mother, and having experience in this area as to when consciousness begins? If you wish to take the question to the deeper level of when sentience begins in an unborn child then please do so, but I made the initial question quite open so as to gain as many people’s thoughts and ideas as possible……….

[aloha_gary]

Aloha Karl et al,

I hope you are well this fine sunny evening?

Based on my experiences and awareness, consciousness cannot be a 'when' because consciousness IS.

All things are sentient to varying degrees, including bacteria, even if we say they are 'only' genetically programmed to behave as they do, this is still action arising from some pre-prepared plan of the DNA.

And in fact when you consider Dr Bruce Liptons work demonstrating that DNA is not fixed but changed by environment including thoughts and beliefs, then the formation of constantly changing DNA patterns must demonstrate intelligence in all cell based life forms.

Both the sperm and the egg are made up of the parent bodies' DNA which is based on their own DNA modifications (based on their life experiences and environments) which have added to their parents and ancestors DNA.

In fact, recent discussions amongst therapists suggest that deep emotional traumas arising during WW1 and 2 are only now coming out for 'release' in the grandchildren or great grandchildren of those affected, as they were too traumatic at the time to be dealt with. I have personal experience of this, as an emotional issue of mine 'originated' in my grandparents being pushed around during the depression and WW2! Bizarre?Maybe. But when we consider how DNA changes with environment, perhaps not that surprising.

So consciousness always exists everywhere.

Hope this helps!?

aloha
Gary

[A Dark Philosopher]

Based on my experiences and awareness, consciousness cannot be a 'when' because consciousness IS.

I agree Gary and thank you for taking the time to consider my question. Now, if we accept that consciousness "IS" then at what point does the Subjective Consciousness that is "us", separate from the One-Consciousness that always "IS"? I’ll clarify that question later regarding the DNA……

All things are sentient to varying degrees, including bacteria, even if we say they are 'only' genetically programmed to behave as they do, this is still action arising from some pre-prepared plan of the DNA. And in fact when you consider Dr Bruce Liptons work demonstrating that DNA is not fixed but changed by environment including thoughts and beliefs, then the formation of constantly changing DNA patterns must demonstrate intelligence in all cell based life forms. Both the sperm and the egg are made up of the parent bodies' DNA which is based on their own DNA modifications (based on their life experiences and environments) which have added to their parents and ancestors DNA.

So very true, yes. But to return to my question above, if we now accept that both Sperm and Egg contain dynamic strands of evolving DNA, then at what point in the whole process does the newly created life-form attain either sentience or consciousness? Whilst consciousness always "IS", the subjectivity of consciousness is not. This is the collapse of the consciousness wave that I assert at the core of my CtCw theory.

Fabulous contribution as I would expect from you Gary, thank you. I would love to read more...................

[Johar]

Great question and plenty to mull over!!

I suppose if I were to take the reductionist view and define sentience in its most fundamental form I would say it is the sending and receiving of stimulus.

This includes the ‘knowing’ that the sentient ‘thing’ has to send and receive this stimulus.

So, once the sperm fertilizes the egg, it ‘knows’ to replicate and receives stimulation in the form of hormones from the mother. It also knows to send out its own hormonal messages and it is this constant exchange that creates the foetus. Therefore, following this logic, sentience begins at the point of conception.

From there I would incorporate CtCw into my thinking and conclude that once sentience is established there is a build up of energy, a quickening if you will, which collapses the consciousness wave. Consciousness, in my opinion, begins instantaneously after sentience, which is established at the point of fertilization.

I feel that consciousness exists on many, many levels, so although a human being has been created at this point, it is still possible to have a fundamental consciousness within the womb, just as many living things have a form of proto consciousness.

If one thinks about evolution over millions of years and reduces it down to 40 weeks or there abouts, one can see the single celled organism evolving rapidly and elegantly to become the human baby.

[Nefertiti]

Although both sets of the parents DNA is passed through the umbilical cord as well as the essential proteins, I think that as the baby emerges it is exposed to light which may cause a reaction to start the whole conscious awareness process off. The baby cannot open its eyes for a short time but then usually a small part of the umbilical cord is still attached. Maybe after this small piece has dropped off the baby's begins to see a bit more clearer and maybe that's when consciousness takes affect? until then it just possesses instinct? as when born the baby will automatically search for food and cry at it's own discomfort.
I have previously wandered about this and remember discussing it the last time we caught up with a few of you guys, it is a great topic to discuss as I feel a lot more study of the umbilical may in time come up with more enlightening facts and maybe more answers to the questions we don't as yet know!
I have always wandered why when we get the gut feeling it is felt in the area of the navel? as this is where we invariably place our hand! there must be more to the umbilical cord than we know!
Back to the light though, It is the first thing we encounter when we are born and yet some will say it is the last thing we notice when we die! which makes me think that maybe it triggers what we know as consciousness and also ends it?
I have not read all the posts on this site and as you may be aware I don't have any scientific jargon or terminology but as some of you who have previously met me you will know that I explain my thoughts in my own simple way!

[Anubis65]

I like to think consciousness as a kind of giant sphere that fragments and we are all parts of the fragments. We are all part of the same thing and all return to it at the end of our lives, a little like Karls theory of the bucket and the sea.
As to when it begins i think it has always been and always will be, no begining and no end.

Here is an interesting piece i found,

Awareness essentially must be awareness of itself, because that which is aware, is aware, and so therefore aware of itself, and therefore aware of itself..... continuously.... there is no ‘begin’ or ‘end’ to this process, otherwise there would be an awareness of NOT being, which is impossible, since awareness itself means awareness of itself. There can be no NOT awareness, for one must be aware in order to consider the idea of NOT awareness!

So before i explode my brain with all this info does the unlimited world of potential create both the illusion of matter and the delusion we call consciousness.