This is the forum for all who are interested in the theory of what may happen to consciousness at the point of death as explained in the books 'Is There Life After Death - The Extraordinary Science Of What Happens When You Die' and The Daemon.
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Johar wrote:I suppose if I were to take the reductionist view and define sentience in its most fundamental form I would say it is the sending and receiving of stimulus.
This includes the ‘knowing’ that the sentient ‘thing’ has to send and receive this stimulus.
Johar wrote:So, once the sperm fertilizes the egg, it ‘knows’ to replicate and receives stimulation in the form of hormones from the mother. It also knows to send out its own hormonal messages and it is this constant exchange that creates the foetus. Therefore, following this logic, sentience begins at the point of conception.
Johar wrote:From there I would incorporate CtCw into my thinking and conclude that once sentience is established there is a build up of energy, a quickening if you will, which collapses the consciousness wave. Consciousness, in my opinion, begins instantaneously after sentience, which is established at the point of fertilization.
Johar wrote:I feel that consciousness exists on many, many levels, so although a human being has been created at this point, it is still possible to have a fundamental consciousness within the womb, just as many living things have a form of proto consciousness. If one thinks about evolution over millions of years and reduces it down to 40 weeks or there abouts, one can see the single celled organism evolving rapidly and elegantly to become the human baby.
Nefertiti wrote:Although both sets of the parents DNA is passed through the umbilical cord as well as the essential proteins, I think that as the baby emerges it is exposed to light which may cause a reaction to start the whole conscious awareness process off. The baby cannot open its eyes for a short time but then usually a small part of the umbilical cord is still attached. Maybe after this small piece has dropped off the baby's begins to see a bit more clearer and maybe that's when consciousness takes affect? until then it just possesses instinct? as when born the baby will automatically search for food and cry at it's own discomfort.
Nefertiti wrote:I have previously wandered about this and remember discussing it the last time we caught up with a few of you guys, it is a great topic to discuss as I feel a lot more study of the umbilical may in time come up with more enlightening facts and maybe more answers to the questions we don't as yet know! I have always wandered why when we get the gut feeling it is felt in the area of the navel? as this is where we invariably place our hand! there must be more to the umbilical cord than we know!
Nefertiti wrote:Back to the light though, It is the first thing we encounter when we are born and yet some will say it is the last thing we notice when we die! which makes me think that maybe it triggers what we know as consciousness and also ends it?
I have not read all the posts on this site and as you may be aware I don't have any scientific jargon or terminology but as some of you who have previously met me you will know that I explain my thoughts in my own simple way!
Anubis65 wrote:I like to think consciousness as a kind of giant sphere that fragments and we are all parts of the fragments. We are all part of the same thing and all return to it at the end of our lives, a little like Karls theory of the bucket and the sea.
Anubis65 wrote:As to when it begins i think it has always been and always will be, no begining and no end.
Anubis65 wrote:Here is an interesting piece i found,
Awareness essentially must be awareness of itself, because that which is aware, is aware, and so therefore aware of itself, and therefore aware of itself..... continuously.... there is no ‘begin’ or ‘end’ to this process, otherwise there would be an awareness of NOT being, which is impossible, since awareness itself means awareness of itself. There can be no NOT awareness, for one must be aware in order to consider the idea of NOT awareness!
Anubis65 wrote:So before i explode my brain with all this info does the unlimited world of potential create both the illusion of matter and the delusion we call consciousness.
Brown wrote:Consciousness to me is defined by sentience, personal experience. A computer is not considered conscious even though it reacts to stimuli. It has no experience of the interaction.
Brown wrote:I think at a more general level we begin with subconscious. A state where we react, feel, but have a limited level if any of self observation. Many animals must fall into this category, but not all. Does a lizard do more than react and sense it's own reactions as a cat would?Consciousness seems to be a level of focus of the barely perceived subconscious awareness. The big problem I feel is that the terms we have are too crude and non-specific for the discussion.
Brown wrote:The crossover from subconsciousness to consciousness seems by experience to be gradual. This begs the question, is the first step into a subconscious state the same, or a matter of a critical mass being reached?
Brown wrote:Answering whether a plant is conscious or from my stance subconscious is another interesting issue. It will react to stimuli, but so will a simple chemical process. What matters is perhaps whether something within or around the plant feels the compulsion to react.
At what point does the Subjective Consciousness that is "us", separate from the One-Consciousness that always "IS"? This question can also be considered towards Kathy’s discussion around the umbilical cord!
aloha_gary wrote:Aloha to you all...
From the Karlmeister...At what point does the Subjective Consciousness that is "us", separate from the One-Consciousness that always "IS"? This question can also be considered towards Kathy’s discussion around the umbilical cord!
The answer is that the subjective conscious NEVER separates from the one-consciousness, that's why it's called the one-consciousness
aloha_gary wrote:So this is the wrong question. I think maybe what you meant to ask is at what point does the newly created consciousness begin to create/collapse? then that would be immediately, at the point of conception.
aloha_gary wrote:So remember that everything is itself, AND also part of everything, the greater whole. So the atom is in the molecule, in the cell, in the organ, in the body, in humanity, on the planet, in the galaxy, in the universe, in the cosmos, in the oneness of everything. Only human mind separates.
aloha_gary wrote:So the wave function is collapsed as soon as the being becomes itself and starts to multiply, which is at conception, however briefly, even if it miscarries in early term, it has existed as itself, and to include what might normally feature in the Esoteric section, the soul connects at the point of conception and leaves at the point of physical exit/death, or as the Hawaiians commonly say, at the point of "change of address"
Nebankh wrote:Karl asked:
"At what point does the subjective human mind seem to separate from the one-ness, whether illusional or not. When does Consciousness (subjectively) begin?"
That's what "The Fall" is attempting to describe, in my not-so-humble opinion Nowt to do with angels and all the other stories different cultures have developed.
Nebankh wrote:Looking at your question as 'when does our subjective Consciousness begin', rather than just as when does consciousness begin, I'd say it develops along with our Will.
Nebankh wrote:When we realise we actually have a Will, we become conscious of the subjective. An infant has a Will but doesn't recognise it as its own (ie it's still a part of the one-ness at this point). An infant will learn to say 'no', to refuse things, and might still not realise that this is its own Will.
Nebankh wrote:Perhaps the defining moment is when our mind develops to the point when we realise our Will is not the same as others, and thereby become aware of Self. I know that's probably stating the obvious, but I'm just trying to introduce the concept of Will
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