So How Does it Work?

[A Dark Philosopher]

Cam: Well, I don't wish to put words into anyone's mouth so hopefully Ally will be around here again soon, and she can add her own thoughts towards my questions as they would be greatly received, appreciated and potentially of much use to my ongoing research.

[Espiralli]

Are you saying you live most of your life within a "dv"?

Yes. That's what I'm saying.

Are you therefore fully aware of this during the experience?

Yes, I'm fully aware. However, the "experience" isn't an isolated thing. The experience is my life, or at least the last thirty-six years of it. And, although I'm always "fully aware" of the dv perception from a global perspective, I oftentimes purposely pay about as much attention to it as I do to the little toe on my left foot.

I'm a functioning continual; I've pulled myself up by my own bootstraps by putting myself into the drama and details of my life, sometimes even pretending to myself (and almost always pretending to others) that my life as I live it moment to moment is not already known to me. However, the only time I really "escape" the dv awareness is when nothing whatsoever "new" is happening. For example, I've opened my front door thousands of times and left for work; when I open the front door again to go to work, of course the action will seem familiar, so it'll be quite easy to discount the dv of opening the door. (Not so easy to discount surrounding details.) Same-so for many things in life. Routine and stasis dull the sense for me. Unique environments, situations, conversations, thoughts, occurrences, etc. heighten it.

I ask as NO-ONE has, as yet, been able to help me query whether it is possible to Lucid Deja Experience (in which I mean, similar to my Lucid Dreaming, one a) becomes cognisant that one is in the dream/deja state and b) then is able to control it and hold onto the sensation for longer).

If you're a lucid dreamer, you might understand that living a continual deja vecu is in many ways like lucid dreaming.

If what you are saying is true

Karl, it's with great effort (overcoming fears of self-exposure and possible repercussions) and expenditure of my time (grasping for the right vocabulary) that I've attempted to share my experience. I have nothing to gain by lying. To the contrary, I have much to lose by telling the truth, even to strangers, about my continual deja vecu. My life is easiest when I keep my mouth shut. I've spoken up, however, because other deja vecu'ers might eventually benefit from the input.

then you will be in a most wonderful position to put some of Tony and my theories into practical experimentation.

Uh oh, here we go. Which theories, and what do you need me to do?

Please get back to me, Ally.

OK, I'm back, Karl.

Sorry it took so long. (You've probably figured out by now that I'm "sporadic.")
Ally

[Espiralli]

My understanding from Espiralli, from earlier posts, is that she continuosly lives a deja vecu type of experience.

Hi, Cam!! Good to see you again. Art told me recently that there'd been more conversation in here, but it's only tonight that I could come back in to talk.

You've understood me quite well from the beginning of our "acquaintance," despite my poor descriptions!

that means a part of her awareness is in time, a part outside of time, albeit it would be best for Espiralli to offer further descriptions.

Yours is a wonderfully-apt description, Cam. You listened well to your deja vu experience. The deja vu/vecu perception pertains not only to time, both forwards and backwards, but to "no-time," that realm where time does not exist.

It seems that would mean Espiralli has previewed or "lived", in some fashion ( at some point ), her present on going experience.

Again, you're correct, Cam. Unfortunately, I can't tell you about the "fashion" or the "point," except to mention that the Light described by people who've had NDEs has something to do with it.

It is quite fascinating to ponder, at least for me ( and I am sure for others, if not Espiralli herself ), just how Espiralli's experience might be coming about.

Fascinating to ponder, but don't hold your breath on the answer being agreed upon any time soon.

On a related subject, I recently came across something in here concerning an experiment that indicated that we make choices before we’re consciously aware of making the choices. That post reminded me of an experiment by Edwin C. May back in 2003. He was testing skin prediction, supposedly finding some correlation between changes in human skin and occurrences later occurring, as if we sense in our skin that something is going to happen before it happens.

If we make choices before we know we've made them (for example, decide to lift our arm before we know we've decided to lift our arm), and we sense occurrences before they occur (for example, our skin reacts before the picture falls from the wall), that would seem to indicate that there is some kind of disjoint, a slight time lapse, between when we perceive (are consciously aware of) the present reality and when the present reality actually is. If the present reality actually is a (milli)second ago, and we're only consciously aware of it in this (milli)second, then we're actually cognizant only of the past, and not of the present as we might suppose. (Just so, though on a much larger timescale, we look only into the past when we scan the night sky.)

This all has to do with deja vu/vecu, the odd sensation of experiencing an eternal sort of "Now." Somehow within the (milli)seconds lies eternity, that realm "outside of time" of which you so aptly spoke.

Would love to read more, if you have the time at some point.

Thanks for your patience and understanding, Cam.

Warm regards,
espiralli

[Espiralli]

It is quite fascinating to ponder, at least for me ( and I am sure for others, if not Espiralli herself ), just how Espiralli's experience might be coming about.

Cam, Art, Karl, and all: I said in my previous message, "this all has to do with deja vu/vecu," I then jumped immediately to something that is much further along the line of discussion (eternity). So I'll backtrack.

If the moment that we perceive as the present is actually the past, then the dv that encompasses "familiarity" with (and sometimes precognition of) what would otherwise be a unique situation is possibly due to our brains in some way tuning into the present when the present is actually occurring, in that previous millisecond, nanosecond (or whatever the timeframe of the disjoint is). Then our brains also receive the information about the experience in the normal manner, which is in the succeeding milli(nano)second.

With deja vu/vecu, the succeeding milli(nano)second is not perceived as it normally is, simply as the present, but we instead sense (or in some cases know) the fact that what we are experiencing and perceiving is actually the past, because in some way we've unconsciously already tuned into and assimilated the experience, when it was actually occurring.

This would seem to simply enough explain the probable workings of that surprising short-term precognitive sense, as well as the ineffable sense of recognition of the moment, of most deja vu/vecu. However, it doesn't explain long-term precognition, the knowing far in advance of experiences that will occur beyond of that brief disjoint between the real present and the perceived present. The realm outside of time (eternity) comes into play when the deja vu/vecu experience entails occasional or frequent long-term precognition; it also factors into that short-term sense of a repeated recognition (the dv within the dv), of the eternal Now.

Again I jump ahead to say that access to the realm outside of time is gained inbetween what the present actually is and what it's perceived to be.

I'll stop, for now, and wait for your input on the matter.

Espiralli

[A Dark Philosopher]

Espiralli: Initially, thank you for addressing my thoughts and questions, but I feel there is still some confusion here. The temporal time delay that you discuss, between what is wholly perceived and then what is presented to subective consciousness is EXACTLY the process that Robert Efron describes in his theory of what a Deja Vu is. I've discussed the R.Efron thesis much within FORUM and BLOG (and even earlier within this very thread) and need here to restate a very important point. Efron's description of the temporal time delay is VERY difficult to argue against in cases of Deja Vu, as these can be fleeting or momentary sensations, which Efron states is purely this blip in temporal presentation of observed empirical input. This is also fitting with the "already seen" translation of Deja Vu, because, in essence, this is what happened. The observation HAD already been seen, albeit milliseconds ago. NOW, when we go into experiences of Deja Vecu, by definition being longer and more subjectively involved than a Deja Vu, the definition again becomes important; "Already LIVED", and Deja Vecu is NOT quite so simple to explain using pure Efron thesis, and as I stated at a conference just a couple of years ago, if reality was running within a perlmanent Deja Vecu, we would not even be able to throw and catch a ball. Tony's theories of CTF and ITLAD suggest that all memory is recorded, thus taking us away from Efron's suggestion that Deja Vu is merely a temporal time blip, into the suggestion that Deja Vecu may be our subjective consciousness tapping into the past life memory playback recording ahead of time (see my theory on the Misallignment of the Bohmian IMAX).
Your statement that you do indeed live within a permanent state of Deja is thus very interesting. Indeed I have often suggested that Deja Vecu must be similar to my own experiences of Lucid Dreaming, BUT, even a Lucid Dream would only last a relatively short period of time (subjectively it may feel MUCH longer as one is sleeping, but objectively the whole dream may only be a brief moment).

I include below some links to previous BLOG posts discussing this temporal time delay and the experimentation around it, so I hope you find these of interest in understanding my confusion around your statements.

BLOG: We Make Decisions Before We Know It [by Jaysi via Doppelganger]
BLOG: Crystal (Eye) Ball - 'See' The Future? [by Karl L Le Marcs]
BLOG: Perception Lagging Behind Time [by Tony]
BLOG: Deja Vu: How Far Ahead Can It Happen? [by Seraph]
BLOG: Deja Vu And Life Replay [by Carenza Waters]

I cannot comprehend the idea of a permanent state of Deja Vecu, for that would surely mean one is permanently aware of what is to occur; and if this was so, then this would be of such supreme importance to Consciousness Studies and ITLAD/CtCw. How far ahead of time does your deja operate?

[Espiralli]

Karl: Thanks for writing back!

[The temporal time delay that you discuss, between what is wholly perceived and then what is presented to subective consciousness is EXACTLY the process that Robert Efron describes in his theory of what a Deja Vu is.

I haven't read Efron's paper(s), but only a few others' interpretations of what he said. Supposedly, he proposed that a delayed neurological response causes déjà vu, and that because information enters the processing centers of the brain via more than one path, it's possible that occasionally that blending of information might not synchronize correctly. I might be wrong, but I have the impression that Efron felt that with deja vu something in our brain is "misfiring," that in effect he assigned a negative into the dv formula to what might actually be a positive. It seems such a small difference, doesn't it?

[ "Already LIVED", and Deja Vecu is NOT quite so simple to explain using pure Efron thesis,

If you boil deja vu down to nothing more than a brain blip (in either a negative or positive fashion) I don't see any reason why you can't boil deja vecu down to the same thing...it would just mean that the brain is blipped more permanently. However, as I mentioned in a previous post, long-term precognition throws a wrench in the works.

[if reality was running within a perlmanent Deja Vecu, we would not even be able to throw and catch a ball.

Why not?

[Tony's theories of CTF and ITLAD suggest that all memory is recorded,

Just so, this communication with you is likewise "recorded."

[even a Lucid Dream would only last a relatively short period of time (subjectively it may feel MUCH longer as one is sleeping, but objectively the whole dream may only be a brief moment).

When I've finished with this deja vecu life, it will have gone by in the blink of an eye.

[I include below some links to previous BLOG posts discussing this temporal time delay and the experimentation around it, so I hope you find these of interest in understanding my confusion around your statements.

Thank you for the links, Karl! Yes, I've found them of interest. Part of your confusion around my statements is that you and I function in this world from completely different perspectives, or states of (particularly temporal) consciousness. Not only are you male and I'm female ~ our brains and psychologies tend to work differently for that reason alone ~ but I live a life of continual deja vecu and you haven't experienced dv at all.

Neither your state nor mine is any better or worse than the other, but the differences do create a challenge when it comes to communication. But where there's a will, there's a way

[I cannot comprehend the idea of a permanent state of Deja Vecu, for that would surely mean one is permanently aware of what is to occur;

No, that's not what it means. For me, precognition is a sporadic feature of the deja vecu. I purposely shut down that arena as much as possible (although not completely) back in 1972, and have continued to want to keep it at low levels since. The "recognition" of my experience as already having been experienced is quite enough for me to deal with on a daily basis, thank you anyway. I consider constant precognition to be the equivalent of a curse.

[How far ahead of time does your deja operate?

If you're referring to the precognitive aspect, it varies from "not at all" to (seconds to minutes to hours to days to weeks to months to) years ahead. Sometimes I know what's going to happen, and usually (thank goodness) I don't. As I mentioned, I prefer to keep such knowings to a minimum, if they're not already kept from me, but they do on occasion intrude.

If you're referring to the recognition (familiarity) aspect, that occurs in the present second-by-second, moment-by-moment, but has through the years become globalized in my conscious awareness to also include my past and my future life (that's an extremely poor description, but the best I can do at the moment ).

'Til soon,
Ally

[Espiralli]

Hi Cam...thanks for your notes!

I think I've heard what you've said, but I'm not sure I have any greater degree of actual understanding as a result.

Do you think I understand my situation fully?

"Perhaps" is an important qualifier to what I wrote there.

I removed the "perhaps" because in my experience your statement didn't need that qualifier.

A fortunate choice of words then, albeit, not a description, per se, coming from any experience of my own.

Regardless, you seemed able to put yourself in my shoes, to a certain extent.

If my description seemed wonderfully apt, then there I go, intuitively I suppose,

Intuition is a good thing

I simply can't offer my own descriptions, from common ground, if you like.

That's OK. I'm not only not used to being able to compare descriptions with people who have common ground, I'm not used to being able to freely discuss dv with others at all (except with Art). I'm not asking for common ground; it's enough that you haven't simply declared me crazy or brain-damaged.

But, am I necessarily "correct", if you get what I mean ?

Yes, you were necessarily correct, Cam. In some fashion or at some point I've previewed my life.

Won't hold my breath, but I'm happy to continue pondering.

I look forward to your ponderings

Yes, this eternal sense of Now seems to get referenced elsewhere as well, in other people's writings.

Care to share any of those writings?

Have your odd sensations extended to an experience of vastness, and interconnectedness, of some sorts, such as described by Jill Bolte Taylor when her left brain essentially went offline ?

I haven't read about her yet, so in order to compare my sensations to hers will have to get back to you on specific this question. Remind me if I fail to get back to it.

However, your question brings to mind two things: 1) when I was a young child, I often experienced sensations of the very large being equivalent to the very small (and vice versa), and 2) the birds flying around the room in unison the other day seemed all connected to each other by something greater and unseen, like some idea of a "huge bird" manifesting in small increments, as if they were protrusions manifesting and visible on this side of a single and greater being on the other side, invisible to my eye.

Have you ever felt similar sensations?

My apparent understanding, however, may simply be a reflection of my listening and hearing.

You understand that I'm not here often, and you don't seem to hold it against me.

Listening and hearing are wonderful skills, Cam, which you seem to have. I know you're modest, but I still thank you for understanding. My use of the word "understanding" means "listening and hearing." Perhaps you feel that "understanding" means total comprehension? Well, how can I expect total comprehension from anyone, if I don't fully comprehend myself?

As for my patience, well, patience is so very inexpensive, isn't it ?

Yes, it is, but not always freely given.

All the best to you, Cam - Ally

[Espiralli]

Have your odd sensations extended to an experience of vastness, and interconnectedness, of some sorts, such as described by Jill Bolte Taylor when her left brain essentially went offline ?

Fascinating!!! Thanks for mentioning her to me, Cam.

I found a video of her speaking about it at http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/jill ... sight.html

No, I've not experienced such a sense to that degree. I usually seem to function by balancing the two sides of my brain, and haven't been in a situation when the left side of my brain was completely offline (or the right side, either, for that matter). My experiences with interconnectedness and vastness, though poignant, have been moderate in comparison with hers.

All the best, Cam ~ Ally

[rafromca]

Cam

Re what Bolte experienced. Here is a paragraph I stumbled upon about Paul Klee, the artist. He said about his painting:

...everything vanishes around me and good works arise from me of their accord. My hand is entirely the implement of a distant sphere. It is not my head that functions but something else, something higher, something more remote. I must have great friends there, dark as well as bright...They are all very kind to me.

I believe when you are in the process of an art form or perhaps in meditation one can contact that part of the brain that Jill experienced, and is very much the daemon Anthony describes. It seems a timeless space. It is why I love to draw and paint.

[A Dark Philosopher]

I haven't read Efron's paper(s), but only a few others' interpretations of what he said. Supposedly, he proposed that a delayed neurological response causes déjà vu, and that because information enters the processing centers of the brain via more than one path, it's possible that occasionally that blending of information might not synchronize correctly. I might be wrong, but I have the impression that Efron felt that with deja vu something in our brain is "misfiring," that in effect he assigned a negative into the dv formula to what might actually be a positive. It seems such a small difference, doesn't it?

Basically, yes, that is the crux of the Efron Thesis, and there have been MANY (and I mean MAANNNYYY) experiments of varying interest that have shown such a temporal time delay to be a "normal" part of what we consider to be our subjective consciousness, but all the experiments also show such to be a transient moment (see especially some of the work by Dean Radin)

If you boil deja vu down to nothing more than a brain blip (in either a negative or positive fashion) I don't see any reason why you can't boil deja vecu down to the same thing...it would just mean that the brain is blipped more permanently. However, as I mentioned in a previous post, long-term precognition throws a wrench in the works.

EXACTLY! To suggest such would require some "constant" time delay; constant being the correct word for two of its meanings! Constant in being always there, and Constant as in a mathematical/time constant; being unchanging in length. Such would thus preclude any and all subjective observation outside of this constant, thus making "now" an unfeasible concept and also future precognition (outside of the constant), impossible.

Just so, this communication with you is likewise "recorded."

Good job you put a smiley wink there Ally or I would be almost believing you there!!!

When I've finished with this deja vecu life, it will have gone by in the blink of an eye.

Ah! But this "blink of an eye" would be different if viewing the Time subjectively or objectively! As Tony suggests in ITLAD, each life could be replayed in subjective time that takes exponentially half as long to the subjective consciousness, while remaining within objective time to objective observation. Or, to try and put it simpler, if someone sees you fall off a cliff, to them your time-line will not alter, you will simply plummet. But to you, your time-line WILL alter, as the Glutamate hits your neuronal network and you literally fall out of time. So yes, a life may be a blink of an eye, but within whose Time perspective?

Thank you for the links, Karl! Yes, I've found them of interest. Part of your confusion around my statements is that you and I function in this world from completely different perspectives, or states of (particularly temporal) consciousness. Not only are you male and I'm female ~ our brains and psychologies tend to work differently for that reason alone ~ but I live a life of continual deja vecu and you haven't experienced dv at all.

Well, yes and no. I certainly agree that brain functioning is somewhat different between ANY two individuals but I really don't find much objective evidence these days in this whole male v female brain stuff, besides many say I'm as close to a female brain as it's possible to get without somewhat intimate surgery!

[How far ahead of time does your deja operate?

If you're referring to the precognitive aspect, it varies from "not at all" to (seconds to minutes to hours to days to weeks to months to) years ahead. Sometimes I know what's going to happen, and usually (thank goodness) I don't. As I mentioned, I prefer to keep such knowings to a minimum, if they're not already kept from me, but they do on occasion intrude.
If you're referring to the recognition (familiarity) aspect, that occurs in the present second-by-second, moment-by-moment, but has through the years become globalized in my conscious awareness to also include my past and my future life (that's an extremely poor description, but the best I can do at the moment ).

Hmmm, see, initially even a permanent state of Deja Vecu is hard for me to contemplate, but to also suggest a varying degree of Time by which your dv works makes it even more complex (see previous comments above regarding the "constant"), anyway, we must see where we can go with this. Feel free to email me directly should you wish to communicate away from the public gaze, I do understand your reticence at making certain things too public.